bridget mulcahy/politico off message by politico staff 10/24/16 05:11 am edt glenn thrush: so, you are from new jersey. you're from orange, new jersey, right? mark kelly: west orange, new jersey. story continued below thrush: west orange. i almost bought a house in west orange, new jersey, because maplewood was too expensive. kelly: yep. nice town, though. thrush: really nice town. what did your folks do? kelly: they were both police officers. thrush: no kidding. kelly: yeah, mom and dad. thrush: did they meet on the force? kelly: they did not. my dad was in the army when he met my mother in 1962, i believe, a couple years before i was born. thrush: pretty unusual for a woman to be a police officer, right? kelly: it is. it is a steep climb, especially in the 1970s, for a woman to become a cop, and my mom worked really hard at it. i learned a lot from my mother. thrush: how did she get into that particular line of work? kelly: you know, i think she was working as a secretary and a waitress pretty much at the same time and was just looking for a better opportunity. thrush: and what was her trajectory? how did she first get onto the force? what kind of jobs did she do? off message by glenn thrush kelly: that's good. she started out as a guard in a prison. thrush: really? kelly: did that for a while, and then she became a county <u+2014> essex county park police officer and then finally west orange police department, where my dad worked. thrush: no kidding. and did she walk the beat? kelly: she did. drove in a car. you know, she's <u+2014> you know, it's interesting. my <u+2014> you know, we often talk about <u+2014> and i know we're going to talk about this <u+2014> thrush: sure, of course. kelly: <u+2014> guns, gun violence. but, you know, in <u+2014> i think my mother was a police officer for 10 or 15 years. she was shot at once and never shot her gun. my dad was the opposite. he shot his gun once and was never shot at. thrush: wow. can you just tell me a little bit about the circumstance of both of those? kelly: well, yes. for my mother, it was somebody held up <u+2014> you know, holed up in their house that had some psychological issues, and she was pinned down in the backyard with bullets flying over her head. and she was laying in the dirt, and they're trying to get into this house to take this guy down, out, whatever. so she had rounds flying around her. my dad had somebody try to run him over in a car while he was a detective in west orange. my dad was a cop for 25 years, and that's the only time he ever pulled out his gun and fired it. thrush: and so, if i can <u+2014> well, what happened? so your mother is pinned down. what ultimately happened to the guy? do you know? kelly: i don't remember. i think we probably have newspaper clippings somewhere in an album about it. thrush: that's amazing. kelly: yeah. thrush: now, were you old enough to remember that in real time? kelly: i do. yeah. i think i was probably about 13, 14, but it was only after the fact that i found out, right, like the next day. thrush: i'm sorry to <u+2014> but it's fascinating. how did she respond to it? was it a really a <u+2014> sort of a shaky experience? kelly: i think it was, yeah. i mean, people don't realize what it's like to be shot at. i've been shot at 39 times in airplanes <u+2014> thrush: right. kelly: <u+2014> you know, in combat over iraq and kuwait during operation desert storm, and you often hear on this issue we work on, which is gun violence <u+2014> you often hear the folks on the other side, the gun rights side, the gun guys, the national rifle association, gun lobby folks, talk about how, you know, if everybody has a gun, everybody will be safe, or in the case of recent mass shootings, you'll have even elected officials, supporters of the gun lobby, say, "well, if i was there and i had a firearm" <u+2014> you know, people don't realize how an emotional and crazy experience it is to have somebody trying to kill you. thrush: well, i remember reading in <u+2014> robert timberg just died. he's the guy who wrote "the nightingale's song" about mccain and all those guys, and mccain's version of being shot down was that whatever russian missile it was looked like a telephone pole coming at them. kelly: it was probably an sa-2. thrush: yeah. kelly: an sa-2 is a very long high-altitude missile used extensively during vietnam. they're much smaller now, but they're also much more accurate. i almost got shot down with an sa-6, which is a much more effective missile. fortunately, we had some countermeasures, and i wound up upside-down in a last-ditch maneuver. the thing blew up but didn't put any holes in the airplane. thrush: so, yeah, i just got off of a flight. we had some turbulence yesterday, and i nearly lost it. so, explain to me, as somebody with a slightly different central nervous system, what that first encounter of being shot at was like, and did it sort of change the way that you <u+2014> were the second, third, fourth ones easier? kelly: well, it certainly changes the way you think about your own mortality, and also, it changes the way you think about being in combat and fighting an enemy. and it's pretty sobering. it's a very <u+2014> a lot of adrenaline, very <u+2014> kind of an emotional experience. you feel like you're fighting for your life, but at the same time, you have a job to do. and you've got to get these weapons on target, which we were able to do successfully pretty much for the entire conflict. thrush: right. kelly: and that's where i kind of get back to this concept that people think they're clint eastwood. thrush: right. kelly: it's not like the movies. i mean, it is not the movies, and this concept of everybody carrying a firearm and they're going to end all these situations, it doesn't work like that. it doesn't even work like that for the police. thrush: well, my dad had a gun. my dad was held up. i'm going to get hit on this again. i am from brooklyn. i say that in every one of these things. my dad had an ice cream store, and he was held up. and he had his old .45, which was his navy sidearm, and he had it for years and year and years. and he kept one in the chamber, from the '50s, never cleaned the thing, and he started carrying it around after he <u+2014> kelly: with a round in the chamber? thrush: with a round in the chamber, and he dropped it on its butt. and it discharged, and it skimmed <u+2014> in my kitchen, and it skimmed him <u+2014> kelly: ooh. thrush: <u+2014> on the forehead, and it was such a <u+2014> and embedded itself in the ceiling. it looked like a spent cigar butt because it was such an old bullet, right? and so the next day, i took it, and i threw it into sheepshead bay. so, if they're ever dredging that up, they'll find his .45. kelly: i'm a gun owner. i own six guns, and i think under the right circumstances, certainly for somebody who has a very specific threat against them, i'm not against somebody carrying a firearm if they're trained and licensed. but the training is critical; i mean, to be able to handle yourself in those circumstances. at the same time, i would be really hesitant to carry one in the chamber. thrush: well, yeah. i don't think he was that <u+2014> he was that adept, really, at that. so, in terms of <u+2014> we'll talk about some of the more contemporary stuff, but i am just totally fascinated by your background. so i'm sorry. i'm going to quiz you on that some more. so, the experience, can you just go through a little bit for me, as somebody who has never been in that experience? just tell me a little bit about the first time that you were shot at in a plane. kelly: well, it was the first night of operation desert storm, launching off uss midway, 8,000 pounds of bombs drop on a hangar at shaibah airfield. thrush: what kind of plane? kelly: it was an a-6 intruder. thrush: wow. kelly: two-person, all-weather, ground-attack airplane. shaibah airfield is a <u+2014> it's a big military base in a place called basra, which is a big city <u+2014> thrush: the south. kelly: yeah, southern iraq. southern iraq. so you <u+2014> to get to that target that night, you got to go through these missile envelopes, and the iraqis had purchased a huge air defense system, more so than the warsaw pact countries. thrush: wow. kelly: i mean, it was extensive <u+2014> that they bought from the soviet union and <u+2014> russia, essentially. and it's got a lot of missile envelopes. there's certain missiles we were really worried about, sa-6 being one of them. sa-6 is a high-explosive, expanding razor wire, so it comes out, you know, and just grows, designed to cut airplanes in half and the crew members, and i really worried about those. and you knew where they were, so you would look for them. and i got to tell you, the worst feeling i ever had in my life up to that point, seeing that first missile coming up at our <u+2014> thrush: really? kelly: oh, yeah. thrush: what did it look like? kelly: it's a big, bright dot, just getting bigger, not moving forward or aft in the canopy, so it stays in the same spot. thrush: which means it's coming right at you. kelly: which means it's coming right at you. and, you know, we go through this whole process of trying to evade it, and ultimately, it doesn't work. so you wind up doing a last-ditch maneuver, which means being upside-down, full power, stick in your lap, trying to create angular change. the thing flies over the top and explodes. thrush: oh. how close was it? kelly: hard to say. close enough, and these things are designed to explode when they're close enough to do damage. thrush: right. kelly: but it didn't do any damage, so it was kind of at the <u+2014> you know, a little bit outside that deployment. thrush: and that's a sturdy airplane. kelly: yeah. but no airplane likes to get holes in it. thrush: right. kelly: you'd just easily cut through hydraulic lines, and you cause fogging of the engine, but fortunately, we didn't have any <u+2014> get any holes in it. but you know what's worse than the first missile coming at you? thrush: what? kelly: the second one. thrush: why? kelly: because now you've already experienced this, so now you really don't like it. but, eventually, you know, in this case, we wound up doing the same thing. thrush: but you get better, essentially. kelly: you get better. the second one didn't blow up. thrush: right. kelly: so, you know, you wind up <u+2014> thrush: is it true what <u+2014> is it churchill or was it teddy roosevelt who said, "there is nothing more" <u+2014> i forgot. kelly: "there's nothing more exciting than being shot at and missed." thrush: to no effect, right? yeah. kelly: it's actually "to no effect." thrush: right. kelly: but missed is <u+2014> that's churchill. thrush: is that true? kelly: yeah, it is true, with the exception, i think, maybe launching in the rocket ship is more exciting. thrush: that feels <u+2014> kelly: that's a lot of fun. that is a lot of fun. but, you know, the "miss" part, the "to no effect" part is kind of critical, and that was from churchill's experience, his personal experience in combat. thrush: in south africa. in south africa. kelly: yeah, the boer war. thrush: when he was captured and escaped. kelly: that's right. thrush: right. kelly: that's right. so, he was a young guy then. thrush: so in terms of <u+2014> one last thing on this, and then we'll move forward. you must process fear in a different way than other people do. kelly: process what? thrush: fear in a different way than other people do. kelly: oh. i don't <u+2014> maybe. i don't know. thrush: no, i'm serious about this. kelly: well, you just deal with it. you know, you <u+2014> thrush: well, some people don't. kelly: yeah. well, you know <u+2014> thrush: i'm serious. there is <u+2014> kelly: i think it had to do with my dad used to take me in and out of that barnegat inlet as a kid on the boat. you ever hear of this inlet? thrush: off of jersey. kelly: yeah, off of jersey. thrush: yeah. kelly: it's like the most treacherous inlet. i almost died 10 times before i was 15 years old. thrush: what kind of boat? kelly: all kinds <u+2014> a boston whaler up to <u+2014> you know, lures. thrush: did he fish? kelly: yeah, we'd go fishing, and we'd break down 10 miles offshore. thrush: i had a very similar experience on the north shore of long island with my father in a 12-foot duranautic. kelly: you probably didn't break down a dozen times. thrush: oh, we broke down a lot. we had an old <u+2014> a 10-horsepower that kept breaking down. but, seriously, i mean, both your parents, the experience that you describe of both of your parents being in those sorts of situations <u+2014> i mean, is there <u+2014> i know it's hard for you to probably talk about yourself, but, like, was it something that <u+2014> as you were sort of growing up, were you more intrepid than other kids? what do you attribute this to that you can go through these experiences and not be a pool of jelly? kelly: well, when i was a kid, i was not averse to risk. my brother and i used to climb up on the roof of every building we could find, and i used to get hurt all the time, wind up in the hospital with broken bones from doing stupid things. but, really, i mean, i remember a number of times <u+2014> i'm not kidding about going through that inlet <u+2014> where it felt like, "this is it. we're done," and i think that may have had something to do with my future path, because afterwards <u+2014> thrush: how high is it? how high are you after something like that? kelly: yeah. right? thrush: yeah. kelly: it's the adrenaline, and afterwards, you're like, "man, that wound up being pretty cool." you don't remember, like, the bad parts. you remember that was pretty exciting. thrush: you must have a very small medulla in your brain. so, in terms of <u+2014> so flying in the shuttle obviously was a <u+2014> that had to be an extraordinary experience. kelly: it's the best. there is nothing more fun than climbing into a rocket ship. thrush: really? kelly: it is a lot of fun. i mean, getting strapped in, laying on your back, closing the hatch, you've trained for a mission like this with your crew for a year to two years, perhaps, and these are very complicated missions. they're very difficult to do well and to accomplish everything, and it's very high risk. so it's very rewarding when it goes well, and at the same time, accelerating from zero to 17,500 miles an hour in just eight-and-a-half minutes, it's a lot of fun. thrush: so have you ever had an <u+2014> so that is the most fun you've ever had in your life? kelly: absolutely. nothing <u+2014> thrush: you want to do it <u+2014> kelly: nothing comes close. thrush: you want to do it again, i would imagine. kelly: i'd do it every week until it killed me. thrush: so one of my <u+2014> here's a question. president obama cut back on one of the <u+2014> during, i think <u+2014> during <u+2014> i'm trying to recall. in the 2010-2012 time frame, part of the cuts were to nasa, and obviously, there has been some debate, particularly in florida, about that. kelly: i wouldn't say it was cuts. so when he <u+2014> he entered office in 2009. thrush: right. kelly: he was elected in 2008. so, by 2010, we had a new plan, and that was <u+2014> it wasn't cuts to nasa's budget. it was really a shift in priorities and a shift in direction to go from the big government program called constellation with the big contractors, a lot of government oversight, to a commercialization <u+2014> is what we called it <u+2014> which essentially was smaller companies, less government oversight, throw the money over the fence. let somebody who could potentially be more innovative do this at a lower cost. i didn't think it was going to work, to be honest. i wasn't a big fan of the idea, but spacex, in particular, has done a pretty good job at this. they have delivered cargo to the space station at a much lower cost. they're about to start delivering crewmembers to the space station, pretty <u+2014> they've had a couple issues and a couple accidents, you know, but we're <u+2014> in full disclosure, i do some consulting for them. thrush: right. kelly: but, you know, this is <u+2014> in hindsight, this was the right direction. thrush: but let me ask you, just from a political perspective. kelly: mm-hmm. thrush: we have very few institutions in this country that bind americans together as a group, right? we all listen to different radio stations, read different media outlets, watch different television shows. the olympics don't work anymore as a unifying institution. people have really lost faith in that because of the doping scandals and what have you and also having professional athletes come out. don't you think having <u+2014> and you are a little older than me, but the space program when i was a kid was this <u+2014> i remember the shuttle stuff in '80, '81. we all left our classrooms, went to the library and watched this stuff on tv. don't you think it plays an important role at a time when the country is so fractured and divided to have something that all americans can kind of focus on? kelly: absolutely. and, you know, you've got to continue to improve it, though, and make it better. and during the bush administration, we decided it was time to retire the space shuttle, after the columbia accident, and we're going to build, you know, better and safer rockets. president obama just announced two weeks ago that he believes that we should send humans to mars, someday, not too far in the distant future, maybe in the mid-'20s, '30s. if elon musk has his way, it will be a lot sooner than that, maybe mid-2020s. he's talking about 2025. you know, if we really set our minds to this, we can do it, and i think it's a great thing for our country. so we can <u+2014> even though our space program has changed a little bit, there have been some jobs that were lost. you mentioned florida. thrush: right. kelly: and that's because we didn't need the army of people that it took to operate the space shuttle. now, those jobs didn't just vanish. they actually went other places. thrush: right. kelly: they went to southern california with spacex, seattle with blue origin. a lot of these companies, smaller companies, are popping up in colorado. i run a <u+2014> i founded a company called world view. i'm co-founder of this company. it's in tucson, arizona. we're going to take payloads and passengers into the stratosphere but lifted by a high-altitude helium balloon, not by a rocket ship. so this is like space flight for people that don't want to fly in the rocket. so those jobs kind of shifted from florida to these other places. thrush: right. kelly: so we have the greatest aerospace industry in the world, and we continue to be the country that is not only innovating but inventing new things. thrush: but the symbolism of it, that image of neil armstrong on the moon and planting the flag on the moon is such a powerful, unifying image. kelly: that's why, 20 years from now, we need to have somebody doing the same thing on the planet mars. thrush: i would just say maybe next week would be helpful. kelly: next week would be great. if it's next week, sign me up. thrush: or maybe three weeks. so, anyway, let's talk a little bit about why you're here. i thought the insight about having your folks having those experiences was just interesting, considering what you had gone through. i remember the day that your wife was shot. it was like a <u+2014> it was one of the most terrifying <u+2014> i mean, just a terrifying day, and i was thousands of miles away. i know you've talked about this quite a bit. can you just go through very briefly what you went through that day, how you found out, and all that kind of thing? kelly: it was a saturday morning in january 2011. i was at home in houston, close to where i live near <u+2014> well, at my house, which is close to where i worked at the johnson space center. gabby was in her district at the safeway grocery store, where she did this thing called "congress on your corner." she'd stand there and take everybody's question all day, if that's what it took. a guy shows up with a gun, shoots our first <u+2014> shoots and kills six other individuals and then injures 12 others, fires 33 rounds in 15 seconds, six people dead, 13 injured. gabby, by far, is the most seriously injured. as i was at home, i just knew she <u+2014> i had just gotten off the phone with her, and 10 minutes later, her chief of staff calls, a young woman named pia carusone, who says, "i don't know how to tell you this, but gabby has been shot." she didn't have a lot of other information. a little while later, i called her back, and for a second, i thought, "well, did that just happen? did i really get that phone call?" and then she said she's been shot in the head. at that point, i knew that this was going to be a big challenge for us. on our way, there in a friend's private airplane, a few tv stations <u+2014> thrush: cbs. kelly: <u+2014> pronounced gabby dead. thrush: yeah. kelly: yep. but she was not going to get taken out by cable news, so we <u+2014> [laughter] kelly: you know, it was quite the roller-coaster ride for six months, included <u+2014> she was in the hospital for six months. i went into space during that period of time. thrush: how did that feel being <u+2014> having to fulfill your obligation and having to be away? kelly: well, first i quit, and then about a month or two later, i had to figure out how to get my job back. you know, if you have the right support people, the right people around you <u+2014> i felt okay about that because i knew she was in good hands with the doctors and folks that were really helping us, but it's a very personal decision when you have a spouse or a kid in the hospital. when do you try to reclaim some of your former life? it's a very personal decision. and then gabby resigned from congress about a year after she was shot. you know, we were just kind of figuring out what we were going to do next. thrush: because this was not <u+2014> you didn't <u+2014> this was not what you thought your life was going to be, obviously. kelly: no. i didn't think i'd be involved in like a political movement or trying to lead one, to some extent, but it was newtown. it was 20 dead little kids and a very <u+2014> i thought a very illogical response from the gun lobby to something so horrific. that kind of pushed gabby and i over the edge. thrush: well, go back to a couple of questions about gabby, and then let's talk about the movement a little bit. when did you realize in the course of her recovery that she was going to come back and be herself again? kelly: well, i mean, when she was <u+2014> even in the icu in tucson, there were some indicators that she was still there. she was still like kind of unconscious or semiconscious. she'd pull my ring off my finger and play with it like she normally would, like if we're at a restaurant, so that was an indicator. and then, when she was awake, it was obvious it was her and her personality, had a hard time communicating back then, but you could tell it was her. thrush: and that must have been pretty heartening. kelly: yeah, yeah. it's a process from when i first walked into the hospital and peter rhee, gabby's lead doctor, who was a trauma surgeon, says <u+2014> and this is a navy guy, right? he served in the navy for 25 years like me. he said <u+2014> i said, "is she going to be okay?" and he says, "well" <u+2014> he didn't give her permission, you know, to die. this is the navy guy in peter. i'm like, "who is this guy?" i later became very good friends with him. he's a great doctor. thrush: so you mentioned newtown. were you surprised <u+2014> well, first of all, let me ask you. i mean, you mentioned that you're a gun owner. what were your politics on this prior to gabby getting shot? kelly: i would say probably <u+2014> you know, i didn't think about it a lot, to be honest, but probably about the same. being a gun owner, somebody <u+2014> i think the second amendment is very important. there's like a culture of gun ownership in this country. we're not like european countries and other countries, and i think it's important for a number of reasons. but, at the same time, especially being the son of, you know, two police officers and somebody who <u+2014> i like to think i think about things logically as an engineer. i think data should drive us to decisions on things and not emotions. so i think we just do a really lousy job of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. i mean, i think we all agree that if you're a felon, you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or possess a gun. well, then why do we make it easy for felons to own and possess guns? we make it very easy for them to do that. the same goes for domestic abusers, even people that are suspected terrorists, people who are dangerously mentally ill. we have a system that makes it incredibly easy for them to acquire and possess firearms. that doesn't make any sense. thrush: do you sense <u+2014> and i've got in-laws around the country <u+2014> louisiana, you know, just folks <u+2014> texas. a lot of them are gun owners. a lot of them love to show me their guns, you know? and it has become, i think, over the last 10 years <u+2014> i don't want to use this term too flippantly, but there's almost the faith or religious aspect to the way that people view guns these days in certain places, that they almost view that as <u+2014> i mean, there's something incredibly core to their being. have you encountered this? i mean, is there a sense <u+2014> now, there's always this american mythology about guns, right? i did not grow up in a house with a lot of guns, but do you feel that this has gotten to the point where it's beyond an issue of rights and has become just sort of banked into people's <u+2014> kelly: i think for some people, that's true. i mean, there are very enthusiastic gun owners out there that do look at this object differently than most of us. i saw an interesting statistic the other day. it said there's 350 million guns in the country <u+2014> about, right? there's 65 million gun owners. thrush: right. kelly: but 3 percent of the gun owners, 3 percent of the 65 million own half of the guns. so you have a lot of people that own a lot of firearms that essentially collect them. thrush: right. kelly: and if they're responsible people, which i imagine most of the are <u+2014> probably, almost all of them <u+2014> that's great. it's good for our economy. there's nothing wrong with giving people in connecticut jobs, but the problem is, in those individuals that you're talking about, their sense of our laws and making decisions logically is somewhat skewed, sometimes in a dangerous direction. thrush: now, in terms of what you are advocating, what is the number, the statistic that i've heard cited in terms of the percentage of americans who support enhanced background checks? and where in the '80s and '90s, it's a bipartisan consensus on this, right? kelly: absolutely. you know, even among nra members <u+2014> you know, frank luntz is a republican pollster, polled nra members on background checks, and that came out at 74 percent. nationwide, it's about 90 percent. thrush: so why do you think <u+2014> and what are you doing now? you're traveling around in <u+2014> kelly: we've started this thing called the "vocal majority tour." it's a bus tour through 41 cities, 14 different states, in about 40 days, leading up to the election, to ignite this 90 percent of americans who really feel that we should live in a country that's safer, not less safe. and the solutions proposed by the gun lobby makes us less safe, so we have to get them to vote on this issue. so we're out there doing that and a bunch of other things. i mean, we've been working on this issue on a number of different fronts for three years now. thrush: well, nothing <u+2014> i covered the white house for a while. nothing has been more frustrating for obama. i've never seen obama more frustrated about anything than he was in the wake of newtown and on the gun issue in general. when you were looking at <u+2014> this is sort of a technical question: do you think a moment was lost with the obama administration? they waited a while before they kind of did their proposal. they had the biden commission. was there anything that obama could have done to kind of push that button more quickly? kelly: well, even when he entered office, entered the white house for the first time in 2009 with a democratic senate and a democratic house, there was little appetite to do anything on this issue, and i think it's because a lot of the democrats were concerned about the influence of the gun lobby, the influence that they, the gun lobby, had on their election, reelection process. thrush: we had kirsten gillibrand on this podcast to talk, very emotional <u+2014> she got very emotional about how wrong she felt she was to have had that opinion. kelly: yeah, but it's not 2009 anymore, and it's certainly not 1994 anymore. thrush: right. kelly: and i'd like to think that we're somewhat responsible for bringing a little bit of reason and rationality to congress on this issue. i saw chris murphy led a filibuster on the senate floor. you had that sit-in in the house of representatives. if we had the same congress today with the same president, we would pass all of our priorities, the priorities of our organization, americans <u+2014> thrush: and what are they? just briefly, what are they? kelly: well, our organization, americans for responsible solutions, i mean, the major things would be to have background checks for most gun sales, certainly not transfers between a dad and a son or when somebody dies, but, i mean, if you're going to sell a gun to a stranger, you should get a background check before doing that. and you should have background checks at gun shows and over the internet. so that's one of our biggest priorities. changes in our domestic violence legislation, you know, this issue affects women much differently than it affects men. most women are killed by people they know with guns, and most men are killed by strangers. and the intersection between domestic violence and gun violence, it's so clear what we could do to protect women from gun violence. we could expand the definition of domestic violence. we could make people who are misdemeanor stalkers <u+2014> we could make them prohibited from buying guns. but this is something the gun lobby opposes, so we're working towards this. we're trying to convince members of congress that this is the right thing to do for our country, without affecting the rights of responsible gun owners. thrush: it's very difficult, though. i mean, one of the big applause lines [trump] gets at his rallies is that hillary clinton is going to repeal the second amendment. now, how the hell she could possibly do that, apart from suspending the senate and the house and all the state legislatures <u+2014> kelly: but the other thing is she's also said a number of times that she has no plans, nor does she want to do that. thrush: and obama, the same thing. look at what happens every time he opens his mouth on guns: gun sales go through the roof. kelly: and has he ever tried to repeal the second amendment? absolutely not. thrush: nobody could. kelly: but people don't want to either. thrush: of course not, but why do you <u+2014> kelly: i mean, hillary lived in arkansas. thrush: right. kelly: she understands gun owners. she understands the importance of the second amendment. however, the second amendment should not extend to a convicted felon. that person should not be allowed to buy a gun. thrush: so let's name some names here. who are the people, if you were to sort of look at the two or three people on the hill or outside of that sphere, who need to stop, in your view, being obstructionists on this? kelly: well, one of the races we are very closely involved in is the new hampshire senate race. the polling i saw just today has maggie hassan up by maybe 9. thrush: oh, 9. that's it. kelly: i saw 9. thrush: wmur. kelly: yeah. yep, the tv station in manchester has her up by 9. that's a race we invested a lot of time and effort and resources in, and kelly ayotte is somebody who opposed the manchin-toomey background check bill. it's interesting, though. her tv ads now say she supports background checks, which isn't true, but she is embracing our talking points and not the talking points of the gun lobby. so that shows a big shift in this issue. another example would be toomey in pennsylvania is running on this issue. he is running on being somebody who is advocating for, and continues to advocate for, safer communities through changes in our gun laws. thrush: is there anything <u+2014> oh, i'm sorry. kelly: kelly, to answer your question, i'd say kelly ayotte. there are others. there's a whole list. thrush: do you think paul ryan is in any way persuadable on this issue? kelly: i would like to think so, but he has not allowed a vote on the floor of the house while he's been speaker. thrush: have you ever talked to him about it? kelly: i have not. i'd like to at some point. maybe after january, he would sit down with us and see what he might <u+2014> you know, if we can persuade him to allow votes on certain bills. thrush: is there anything that you think that <u+2014> let us presume for a moment, and as we sit here right now, the oddsmakers are putting this very much in hillary clinton's favor in terms of how this is going to go, and my spidey sense says we're going to have another trump surge, just because so much money is on the other side of the table. kelly: two weeks? thrush: right. is there anything a president <u+2014> presumably, let's just go for the scenario that she does become president. is there anything you would like to see her in terms of executive action that could be done on this? kelly: well, last january, president obama took some pretty positive steps on the executive action front, and those have to always pass the legal test. and we worked with the white house on some of those, some of those issues. what we need now is we need these members of congress, especially ones that are now running and embracing gun safety legislation as part of their platforms to get reelected, and they're doing this because they know they're now with the american people. and they don't have to support the policies of the gun lobby anymore, and there are a lot of the out there. thrush: right. kelly: so, i mean, ultimately, we need strong federal legislation, and for that, we need congress. thrush: just in terms of going around, i'm fascinated. going around the country, this is an issue. there are very few issues that get people as riled up as this. what are some of the reactions you're getting, both positively <u+2014> i mean, just because i presume i know what the positive reactions are, do people confront you ever? kelly: yeah, sure. thrush: what kinds of interactions have you had out there? kelly: well, you know, one of my favorite things to do is <u+2014> the times that we do get people there like protesting us and that are on this other side of the issue, one of my favorite things to do <u+2014> and it makes my staff a little nervous at times <u+2014> is to go and talk to them. i'll walk across the street. like, you know, i walked across the street to the gun show. thrush: what the hell is wrong with you? kelly: i know. that's what they say. thrush: you're not supposed to talk to people. kelly: this is with the guys that are holding up these pretty nasty signs, and i'll go right up to them and say, "do you want to talk about this?" and then <u+2014> thrush: oh, so this is what you do to get your adrenaline fix, now that you can't be in combat aircraft anymore. kelly: maybe, maybe what it is. but i also feel that if somebody is going to show up and be involved in the process, they have a right to be heard. so, i mean, that's why i like to engage with them, and sometimes it usually doesn't go so well right in the beginning. but if i stand there and listen and then engage them in a positive way <u+2014> and i understand these people. i own guns. usually, by the end, it's a pretty positive experience for all of us. thrush: listen, i feel the same way with my trolls on twitter. i feel <u+2014> and we were talking about this before we fired this thing up. i really do think 95 percent of the people that you engage on a personal level, even if they kind of hate you starting out, people are people, man. you can communicate with them, and it's really a lost <u+2014> it's an incredibly lost function in this <u+2014> kelly: so i look for every opportunity to do that. thrush: yeah. kelly: if we're doing a public event, i always try to figure out, okay, who in this audience <u+2014> sometimes you can tell by just looking at them <u+2014> who in this audience really doesn't like <u+2014> you know, like our position on this is <u+2014> thrush: because they're wearing a red hat that says "make america great again." kelly: right. you can sometimes pick them out of the crowd, and i'll always go to them first and let them ask the question first. thrush: that's also the jersey in you, right? kelly: right. maybe. thrush: just a couple more quick things. but, look, just to kind of tie this up in a ribbon here, your wife was nearly killed communicating with people on street corners. kelly: yep. thrush: and that was at a safeway just talking with <u+2014> probably talking with people about federal legislation or whatever. do you ever really worry about somebody doing that to you? kelly: i think about it <u+2014> well, or her. again, you know there's a guy in jail and another guy in jail in arizona right now who threatened gabby, and yes, i think about it. i don't worry about it all that much. we try to <u+2014> you know, we just try to do the right thing, and i think public service is important, and i think it's important to make a difference. and gabby really believes that. i mean, it's so built into her core that she's been put on this earth to help people and make a difference, and this is the best way she can help people right now. and she can work hard to make sure <u+2014> or try to make sure that there's not another sandy hook elementary school shooting. and we're not going to stop every one of these things, but i think the work we've done up to this point over the last three and a half years have saved some people's lives because we've helped get legislation passed in probably a dozen different states. and that legislation will save some child's life somewhere, and that makes it worth it. thrush: last couple questions here. let's just talk about that issue of public service. i am toxified by this election. i am tired of this crap. kelly: is that a word, "toxified"? thrush: i just made it up, man. that's how pissed off i am. i believe <u+2014> i've covered politics for a really long time. i believe that the vast majority of people on both sides of the aisle really do have the public interest in mind, and i don't <u+2014> and i think the level of cynicism we have in this country is unwarranted. i mean, there's a lot of bad stuff going on, but i think a lot of people are of good will. as you're watching this process <u+2014> and you've gone into combat for your country <u+2014> what do you think overall about this sort of notion of public service and the way that this process is kind of degrading people's feelings about that? kelly: well, hopefully <u+2014> you know, it seems to have degraded over the last six months or so. i hope we come out of the other end of this election and can kind of refocus on certain priorities. i really hope to see congress work much better together in a bipartisan fashion. it's gotten pretty ugly, but public service, i think it's important to <u+2014> i think it's one of the things that makes america such a great country. i have a lot of friends overseas, and this concept of being part of a community and being charitable, it was something that it really makes america stand out in some really great ways. i remember being at a charitable event with a friend of mine who is from france and lived in france most of his life, and we were <u+2014> he was raising money for a charitable cause, and people were breaking out their checkbooks. he said, "you know, i never really saw this in my own country," and he says this is one of the things that makes america a really special place. thrush: i agree. so i guess the last question is, what are you going to do after this is all over, after the election is over? obviously, you're doing your business stuff. are you going to continue sort of working on the gun issue? are you going to lobby congress? kelly: absolutely. yeah. gabby and i are committed, up until the point that we get universal background checks and new domestic violence legislation and stalking legislation and do something about gun trafficking and these terrible amendments that we put on appropriations bills that allow <u+2014> that don't allow the cdc and the nih to do research and <u+2014> thrush: and release the statistics. kelly: yeah. yeah, exactly. and how the atf has got their hands tied and not allowed to do their jobs. until we fix all those things, we're going to continue to work on this. this is our full-time jobs. we're volunteers, though we run an organization that now has 40 people, and we're committed to making this country a safer place without, by the way, negatively affecting the gun rights of responsible people. and that's a key. responsible gun owners like myself, this shouldn't be a burden on them, and getting a background check is certainly not a burden on anybody. most people who own guns have bought a gun with a background check at some point in their lives already. it takes about five minutes. it's not a big deal. thrush: okay. i lied. one last question. back to the adrenaline stuff, what do you do now, apart from confronting gun rights activists at events <u+2014> where do you put all that <u+2014> kelly: i started jumping out of airplanes a year ago, and as a pilot in the navy and as an astronaut, you don't actually jump out of airplanes. thrush: right. kelly: the goal is to not jump out of the airplane, but now that i'm not flying fighters in the navy anymore, i'm not flying the space shuttle, now i just started jumping out of the airplane. but let me give you some advice for the other 50-year-old people out there. thrush: yes. kelly: be really careful, because learning how to skydive is something you should really do in your 20s when you're made of rubber. thrush: because when you hit the ground <u+2014> kelly: or when you crash into the tree in the desert at 50-something, it really hurts. thrush: this has happened to you? kelly: yes. thrush: what happened? kelly: but it was a small tree. thrush: how big? kelly: you know, maybe more like a bush. it still hurts. so you got to be really careful. thrush: so this is what you do to get your jones now? kelly: a little bit. yeah, it gives you a little bit of that rush. thrush: well, don't bother inviting me to come along. it was very nice to meet you, and give my regards to your wife, who i covered on the hill and was always wonderful to talk to when she was in congress. kelly: i will do that. thank you. thrush: thank you, mark. by michael grunwald by bill scher by thomas wright by joshua zeitz
full transcript: mark kelly - politico
michael grunwald