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We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things.
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We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things.
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julia
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The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do do those things quite often. Most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies.
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The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do do those things quite often. Most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies.
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julia
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And most women as well, more than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody. So murder fantasies are incredibly common.
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And most women as well, more than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody. So murder fantasies are incredibly common.
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julia
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Yeah, so each trait on the dark tetrad, as it's called, which is the four traits that are associated with dark personality traits.
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Yeah, so each trait on the dark tetrad, as it's called, which is the four traits that are associated with dark personality traits.
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julia
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So things that we often associate with the word evil, like sadism, which is a pleasure in hurting other people, Machiavellianism, which is doing whatever it takes to get ahead,
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So things that we often associate with the word evil, like sadism, which is a pleasure in hurting other people, Machiavellianism, which is doing whatever it takes to get ahead,
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julia
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narcissism, which is taking too much pleasure in yourself and seeing yourself as superior to others.
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narcissism, which is taking too much pleasure in yourself and seeing yourself as superior to others.
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julia
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And then there's psychopathy. Psychopathic personality specifically often lacks in empathy.
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And then there's psychopathy. Psychopathic personality specifically often lacks in empathy.
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julia
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And it's usually characterized by a number of different traits,
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And it's usually characterized by a number of different traits,
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julia
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including a parasitic lifestyle, so mooching off of others, deceptiveness, lying to people, and again, that empathy dimension, where you are more comfortable hurting other people because you don't feel sad when other people feel sad.
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including a parasitic lifestyle, so mooching off of others, deceptiveness, lying to people, and again, that empathy dimension, where you are more comfortable hurting other people because you don't feel sad when other people feel sad.
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julia
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Now, all of those traits, psychopathy, sadism, Machiavellianism, and narcissism, all of them have a scale.
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Now, all of those traits, psychopathy, sadism, Machiavellianism, and narcissism, all of them have a scale.
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julia
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And what the dark tetrad is, it's actually a way of classifying people into those who might be more likely to engage in risky behaviors or harmful behaviors and those who are not.
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And what the dark tetrad is, it's actually a way of classifying people into those who might be more likely to engage in risky behaviors or harmful behaviors and those who are not.
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julia
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But each of us scores somewhere. So I might score low on sadism, but higher on narcissism.
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But each of us scores somewhere. So I might score low on sadism, but higher on narcissism.
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julia
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And in all of them, I'm probably subclinical. And so this is the other thing we often talk about in psychology is that there's clinical traits and clinical diagnoses, like someone is diagnosed as having narcissism.
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And in all of them, I'm probably subclinical. And so this is the other thing we often talk about in psychology is that there's clinical traits and clinical diagnoses, like someone is diagnosed as having narcissism.
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julia
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Or there's subclinical, which is you don't quite meet the threshold, but you have traits that are related and that are so important for us to understand in the same context.
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Or there's subclinical, which is you don't quite meet the threshold, but you have traits that are related and that are so important for us to understand in the same context.
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julia
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And so the question of would you kill Baby Hitler is sort of meant to be something that gets people chatting about whether or not they think that people are born with the traits that make them capable of extreme harm towards others,
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And so the question of would you kill Baby Hitler is sort of meant to be something that gets people chatting about whether or not they think that people are born with the traits that make them capable of extreme harm towards others,
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julia
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or whether they think it's socialized, whether it's something that maybe in how people are raised is...
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or whether they think it's socialized, whether it's something that maybe in how people are raised is...
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julia
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sort of manifests over time. And with Hitler, we know from certainly psychologists who have poured over his traits over time and looked at who he was over the course of his life. There's always this question of sort of, was he mad or bad?
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sort of manifests over time. And with Hitler, we know from certainly psychologists who have poured over his traits over time and looked at who he was over the course of his life. There's always this question of sort of, was he mad or bad?
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julia
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And with the answer to, was he mad? Well, he certainly had some characteristics that people would associate with, for example, maybe sadism, with
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And with the answer to, was he mad? Well, he certainly had some characteristics that people would associate with, for example, maybe sadism, with
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julia
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this idea that he was less high on empathy is probably also showcased in his work.
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this idea that he was less high on empathy is probably also showcased in his work.
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julia
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But in terms of whether he was born that way, I think the answer usually would be no.
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But in terms of whether he was born that way, I think the answer usually would be no.
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julia
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And actually in his early life, he didn't showcase quite a lot of the traits that later he sort of defined the horrors that he was capable of.
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And actually in his early life, he didn't showcase quite a lot of the traits that later he sort of defined the horrors that he was capable of.
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julia
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So would I go back in time and kill Baby Hitler? The answer is no, because I don't think it's a straight line from baby to adult and I don't think people are born evil.
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So would I go back in time and kill Baby Hitler? The answer is no, because I don't think it's a straight line from baby to adult and I don't think people are born evil.
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julia
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Well, and I would be careful with using the word evil because I think we shouldn't use it to describe human beings because it most commonly others people.
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Well, and I would be careful with using the word evil because I think we shouldn't use it to describe human beings because it most commonly others people.
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julia
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So for me, that word is, it's the end of a conversation.
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So for me, that word is, it's the end of a conversation.
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julia
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It's when we call somebody evil, we say, this person is so different from me that I don't even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things because I would never do such things. I am good.
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It's when we call somebody evil, we say, this person is so different from me that I don't even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things because I would never do such things. I am good.
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julia
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And so that artificial differentiation between good and evil is something that certainly with the book, I'm trying to dismantle. And that's why introducing continuums for different kinds of negative traits is really important.
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And so that artificial differentiation between good and evil is something that certainly with the book, I'm trying to dismantle. And that's why introducing continuums for different kinds of negative traits is really important.
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julia
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And introducing this idea that there's nothing fundamental to people that makes them capable of great harm. We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things.
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And introducing this idea that there's nothing fundamental to people that makes them capable of great harm. We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things.
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julia
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The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do do those things quite often. So I think humanizing and understanding that we all have these traits is the most important thing in my book, certainly.
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The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do do those things quite often. So I think humanizing and understanding that we all have these traits is the most important thing in my book, certainly.
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julia
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That's right. And on top of dehumanization, there's also this other thing called deindividuation, which is where you see yourself as part of the group and you no longer see yourself as an individual.
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That's right. And on top of dehumanization, there's also this other thing called deindividuation, which is where you see yourself as part of the group and you no longer see yourself as an individual.
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julia
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And so it's this fight of us versus them. And so you need both of those things. You need that sort of collapse of empathy for other people, the people who are on the other side.
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And so it's this fight of us versus them. And so you need both of those things. You need that sort of collapse of empathy for other people, the people who are on the other side.
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julia
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And that gives you a sense of also the cloak of justice, the cloak of morality, even when, you know, maybe you're on the wrong side.
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And that gives you a sense of also the cloak of justice, the cloak of morality, even when, you know, maybe you're on the wrong side.
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julia
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And that's where, I mean, getting into sort of who's on the right side of each war is always a more complicated issue.
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And that's where, I mean, getting into sort of who's on the right side of each war is always a more complicated issue.
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julia
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But certainly calling other people evil and calling the other side evil and dehumanizing them is crucial to most of these kinds of fights.
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But certainly calling other people evil and calling the other side evil and dehumanizing them is crucial to most of these kinds of fights.
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julia
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Also, the title of my book is evil, or in the UK market, it's making evil, which is a reference to a Nietzsche quote, which is thinking evil is making evil.
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Also, the title of my book is evil, or in the UK market, it's making evil, which is a reference to a Nietzsche quote, which is thinking evil is making evil.
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julia
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And so I also think that we need to, well, dismantle that and empathize with people we call evil because if we're saying that this is the worst kind of act or worst kind of manifestation of what somebody can be.
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And so I also think that we need to, well, dismantle that and empathize with people we call evil because if we're saying that this is the worst kind of act or worst kind of manifestation of what somebody can be.
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julia
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I work as a criminal psychologist. So I work a lot on sexual abuse cases, on rape cases, on murder trials. And so in those contexts, that word evil is used all the time to go, this person is evil.
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I work as a criminal psychologist. So I work a lot on sexual abuse cases, on rape cases, on murder trials. And so in those contexts, that word evil is used all the time to go, this person is evil.
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julia
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And if we're doing that, then we need to go, okay, but what we actually want is we don't really just want to label people. We want to stop that behavior from happening.
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And if we're doing that, then we need to go, okay, but what we actually want is we don't really just want to label people. We want to stop that behavior from happening.
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julia
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And the only way we're going to do that is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior.
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And the only way we're going to do that is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior.
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julia
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And so that's why evil empathy, I think, is crucial, because ultimately what we want is to make society safer.
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And so that's why evil empathy, I think, is crucial, because ultimately what we want is to make society safer.
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julia
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I think it's important to speak with people whom we or whom a lot of people dehumanize, including myself.
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I think it's important to speak with people whom we or whom a lot of people dehumanize, including myself.
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julia
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I mean, I also speak with people who I think are or have, I know have committed terrible crimes and I have spoken to these people because as a criminal psychologist that's often part of my job.
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I mean, I also speak with people who I think are or have, I know have committed terrible crimes and I have spoken to these people because as a criminal psychologist that's often part of my job.
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julia
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What's interesting, I think, when you're speaking to people who have committed really terrible crimes, or certainly who've been convicted of terrible crimes,
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What's interesting, I think, when you're speaking to people who have committed really terrible crimes, or certainly who've been convicted of terrible crimes,
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julia
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is that not only is it potentially insightful because they might give you a real answer and not just a controlled narrative about why they committed these crimes,
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is that not only is it potentially insightful because they might give you a real answer and not just a controlled narrative about why they committed these crimes,
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julia
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if they are either maintaining their innocence or they're more reluctant to do that, I think even the narrative that they are controlling, that they're being very careful with, still tells us a lot about them.
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if they are either maintaining their innocence or they're more reluctant to do that, I think even the narrative that they are controlling, that they're being very careful with, still tells us a lot about them.
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julia
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So I think certainly in my research on environmental crime as well, what we see is that people use a lot of rationalization and they say things like, well, everybody's doing it.
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So I think certainly in my research on environmental crime as well, what we see is that people use a lot of rationalization and they say things like, well, everybody's doing it.
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julia
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And if I hadn't done this first, somebody else would have done this waste crime or this other kind of crime.
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And if I hadn't done this first, somebody else would have done this waste crime or this other kind of crime.
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julia
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And so there's this rationalization, there's this normalization, there's this diminishing of your own role and agency.
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And so there's this rationalization, there's this normalization, there's this diminishing of your own role and agency.
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julia
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And that still tells us a lot about the psychology of people who commit crimes because most of us are very bad at saying sorry and saying, I messed this up and I shouldn't have done that.
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And that still tells us a lot about the psychology of people who commit crimes because most of us are very bad at saying sorry and saying, I messed this up and I shouldn't have done that.
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julia
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And instead, what our brains do is they try to make us feel better. And they go, no, you're still a good person, despite this one thing.
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And instead, what our brains do is they try to make us feel better. And they go, no, you're still a good person, despite this one thing.
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julia
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And so we try to rationalize it and we try to excuse it. We try to explain it.
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And so we try to rationalize it and we try to excuse it. We try to explain it.
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julia
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And there is some truth to it as well, because we know the reasons why we engage in that behavior and other people don't have the whole context.
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And there is some truth to it as well, because we know the reasons why we engage in that behavior and other people don't have the whole context.
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julia
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So we also do have more of the whole story. But on the other hand, we need to also face the fact that sometimes we do terrible things and we need to stop doing those terrible things and prevent other people from doing the same.
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So we also do have more of the whole story. But on the other hand, we need to also face the fact that sometimes we do terrible things and we need to stop doing those terrible things and prevent other people from doing the same.
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julia
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But our creepiness radars are also way off. So this is something that I've been interested in for a long time as well, is that we have this intuitive perception of whether or not somebody is trustworthy.
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But our creepiness radars are also way off. So this is something that I've been interested in for a long time as well, is that we have this intuitive perception of whether or not somebody is trustworthy.
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julia
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And that intuitive perception, according to ample studies at this point, is not to be trusted.
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And that intuitive perception, according to ample studies at this point, is not to be trusted.
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julia
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And one thing in particular is whether or not we think someone is creepy, including children. But usually the research is done, of course, on adult faces and with adults.
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And one thing in particular is whether or not we think someone is creepy, including children. But usually the research is done, of course, on adult faces and with adults.
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julia
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And it has a lot to do with just not following social norms.
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And it has a lot to do with just not following social norms.
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julia
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And this is something we see that transfers to other contexts, like why people are afraid of people with severe mental illness and psychosis.
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And this is something we see that transfers to other contexts, like why people are afraid of people with severe mental illness and psychosis.
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julia
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If you're on the bus or the tube in London and someone's talking to themselves and they're acting in an erratic way, we know that people are more like to keep a distance.
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If you're on the bus or the tube in London and someone's talking to themselves and they're acting in an erratic way, we know that people are more like to keep a distance.
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julia
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There was one study where they literally had a waiting room where they also had people with chairs. And the question was, how many chairs would you sit away from someone you know has a severe mental illness?
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There was one study where they literally had a waiting room where they also had people with chairs. And the question was, how many chairs would you sit away from someone you know has a severe mental illness?
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julia
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And the answer is you sit more chairs away. And there's a physical and psychological distancing that's happening there. And it's not because people with severe mental illness are inherently more violent or more dangerous. That is not actually what the research finds.
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And the answer is you sit more chairs away. And there's a physical and psychological distancing that's happening there. And it's not because people with severe mental illness are inherently more violent or more dangerous. That is not actually what the research finds.
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julia
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It's that we perceive them as such because we perceive them as weird, basically. We go, this isn't how you're supposed to be behaving.
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It's that we perceive them as such because we perceive them as weird, basically. We go, this isn't how you're supposed to be behaving.
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julia
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And so I'm worried about this. And so I'm going to keep my distance.
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And so I'm worried about this. And so I'm going to keep my distance.
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julia
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And so creepiness is much the same. And that's where you can totally misfire whom you perceive as creepy just because they're not acting in the way that you expect people to act in society.
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And so creepiness is much the same. And that's where you can totally misfire whom you perceive as creepy just because they're not acting in the way that you expect people to act in society.
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julia
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It depends. If they're too attractive, it can be so there's there there there's effects that interact there.
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It depends. If they're too attractive, it can be so there's there there there's effects that interact there.
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julia
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And we also don't trust people potentially who are too attractive.
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And we also don't trust people potentially who are too attractive.
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julia
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But again, deviation from the norm. And so if you're deviating in any way, that can lead to, well, your assessment being more wrong, but also you assessing people as more negative.
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But again, deviation from the norm. And so if you're deviating in any way, that can lead to, well, your assessment being more wrong, but also you assessing people as more negative.
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julia
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And so with, yeah, but with creepiness, the main thing that bothers me as a criminal psychologist is that tangential to creepiness is this. general idea of trustworthiness and that you can tell whether somebody is lying.
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And so with, yeah, but with creepiness, the main thing that bothers me as a criminal psychologist is that tangential to creepiness is this. general idea of trustworthiness and that you can tell whether somebody is lying.
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julia
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And I've done research on this, as have lots of other people, like Aldert Fry is one of the leading researchers on deception detection.
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And I've done research on this, as have lots of other people, like Aldert Fry is one of the leading researchers on deception detection.
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julia
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And he has found in so many studies that it's really hard to detect whether someone is lying reliably and that people, especially police officers, people who do investigative interviewing,
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And he has found in so many studies that it's really hard to detect whether someone is lying reliably and that people, especially police officers, people who do investigative interviewing,
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julia
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they have this high confidence level that they, because of their vast experience, can in fact tell whether the person across from them is lying to them, this witness, the suspect.
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they have this high confidence level that they, because of their vast experience, can in fact tell whether the person across from them is lying to them, this witness, the suspect.
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julia
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And the answer to that, even that, if you take them into experimental settings, they are no better than chance at detecting lies.
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And the answer to that, even that, if you take them into experimental settings, they are no better than chance at detecting lies.
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julia
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And yet they think they are. And so again, you get into this path where you're going to miss people who are actually lying to you potentially.
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And yet they think they are. And so again, you get into this path where you're going to miss people who are actually lying to you potentially.
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julia
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And you're going to potentially point at innocent people and say, I think you're guilty of this crime. And you go hard on that person in a way that might even lead to a wrongful conviction.
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And you're going to potentially point at innocent people and say, I think you're guilty of this crime. And you go hard on that person in a way that might even lead to a wrongful conviction.
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julia
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Not just policing, in relationships and in lots of other contexts as well. I mean, a lot of jealous jealousy is born out of uncertainty.
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Not just policing, in relationships and in lots of other contexts as well. I mean, a lot of jealous jealousy is born out of uncertainty.
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julia
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Jealousy isn't I know for sure that you have done something that is threatening our relationship. A lot of jealousy is what's in my head because I am assuming that you might be thinking or doing X.
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Jealousy isn't I know for sure that you have done something that is threatening our relationship. A lot of jealousy is what's in my head because I am assuming that you might be thinking or doing X.
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julia
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And that is also basically an exercise in lie detection. And there as well, we are very bad at it.
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And that is also basically an exercise in lie detection. And there as well, we are very bad at it.
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julia
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There's definitely some research to support the idea that people with psychopathy are better at lying.
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There's definitely some research to support the idea that people with psychopathy are better at lying.
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julia
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There's also some research specifically on faking good in, for example, parole decisions.
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There's also some research specifically on faking good in, for example, parole decisions.
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julia
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So when it comes up to someone who is, there's a legal decision to be made as to whether this person is going to be released from prison or released from just detention in general.
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So when it comes up to someone who is, there's a legal decision to be made as to whether this person is going to be released from prison or released from just detention in general.
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julia
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And then the person will act in a particular way, sort of mimic. a good prisoner, mimic someone who's safe to be released into society.
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And then the person will act in a particular way, sort of mimic. a good prisoner, mimic someone who's safe to be released into society.
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julia
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And then the committee goes, oh, well, you know, this person's doing great. And so they're ready to be released. And then they make the wrong decision because that person has been faking it. So I think with psychopathy, it's a bit complicated.
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And then the committee goes, oh, well, you know, this person's doing great. And so they're ready to be released. And then they make the wrong decision because that person has been faking it. So I think with psychopathy, it's a bit complicated.
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julia
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There has been some sort of historically as well, some concern that certain treatment for psychopathy, especially empathy-focused treatment, makes people with psychopathy more likely to fake empathy and to weaponize it.
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There has been some sort of historically as well, some concern that certain treatment for psychopathy, especially empathy-focused treatment, makes people with psychopathy more likely to fake empathy and to weaponize it.
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julia
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But then there's other research which finds that if you use other kinds of interventions, it's like Jennifer Scheme in California, who does research on people with psychopathy who have committed severe crimes.
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But then there's other research which finds that if you use other kinds of interventions, it's like Jennifer Scheme in California, who does research on people with psychopathy who have committed severe crimes.
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julia
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And she specifically creates these treatment programs that aren't just around empathy, but they're more around almost learning the rules of society and convincing people that actually being pro-social is a better way to get what you want in life.
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And she specifically creates these treatment programs that aren't just around empathy, but they're more around almost learning the rules of society and convincing people that actually being pro-social is a better way to get what you want in life.
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julia
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And so there's a real need for tailored treatments to deal with, especially certain kinds of personality traits, dark personality traits, to try and convince people basically,
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And so there's a real need for tailored treatments to deal with, especially certain kinds of personality traits, dark personality traits, to try and convince people basically,
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julia
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actually being pro-social is a better path, rather than just going hard on empathy and things that they don't maybe also see as faults with themselves.
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actually being pro-social is a better path, rather than just going hard on empathy and things that they don't maybe also see as faults with themselves.
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julia
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So a lot of the Nietzsche quotes I use as well are some of them I like because they speak to the chapters I write about and the issues I write about.
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So a lot of the Nietzsche quotes I use as well are some of them I like because they speak to the chapters I write about and the issues I write about.
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julia
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But some of them I also like because they are how people think about evil and people who are labeled evil.
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But some of them I also like because they are how people think about evil and people who are labeled evil.
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julia
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And I do think with gazing into the abyss and the abyss gazing back, it's more of a you're trying to find it.
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And I do think with gazing into the abyss and the abyss gazing back, it's more of a you're trying to find it.
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julia
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And that's why in some ways that doesn't work actually, because it isn't a total blank. It isn't the abyss.
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And that's why in some ways that doesn't work actually, because it isn't a total blank. It isn't the abyss.
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julia
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There are in fact things that you can see, even if it's just superficially, and patterns you can recognize to help you and key decision makers, especially in legal settings, make better decisions around people like this.
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There are in fact things that you can see, even if it's just superficially, and patterns you can recognize to help you and key decision makers, especially in legal settings, make better decisions around people like this.
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julia
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So when they see these patterns, they act a better way.
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So when they see these patterns, they act a better way.
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julia
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So, yeah, I get asked a lot as a criminal psychologist, do you carry the cases that you deal around with you?
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So, yeah, I get asked a lot as a criminal psychologist, do you carry the cases that you deal around with you?
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julia
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So some of the cases involve, you know, huge amounts of witnesses, huge amounts of potential victims.
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So some of the cases involve, you know, huge amounts of witnesses, huge amounts of potential victims.
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julia
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And so in these cases, there are very visceral descriptions sometimes of heinous crimes.
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And so in these cases, there are very visceral descriptions sometimes of heinous crimes.
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julia
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And I think that as someone who does this work, you can't be someone who sees it as anything other than a puzzle.
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And I think that as someone who does this work, you can't be someone who sees it as anything other than a puzzle.
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julia
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So you have to look at it and go, here's the different pieces of information.
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So you have to look at it and go, here's the different pieces of information.
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julia
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What I am doing is pattern recognition. I'm not here to emotionally invest in each of these victims or potential victims. That's not my role. There's therapists for that. There's other people who do that work.
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What I am doing is pattern recognition. I'm not here to emotionally invest in each of these victims or potential victims. That's not my role. There's therapists for that. There's other people who do that work.
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julia
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I am here working with the police. I'm here working with lawyers. I'm here looking at it more sort of objectively to see how this all fits together.
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I am here working with the police. I'm here working with lawyers. I'm here looking at it more sort of objectively to see how this all fits together.
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julia
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And so I think that's how I engage with it. I see it as this puzzle that I'm trying to figure out.
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And so I think that's how I engage with it. I see it as this puzzle that I'm trying to figure out.
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julia
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